Centre of Tallahassee

Coverage and Discussion of Projects Underway within the City of Tallahassee and Leon County.

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tricknole
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by tricknole » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:30 am

LCpro wrote:I've wondered how much surrounding demographics played into their inability to secure quality retail tenants. Many retailers today look very closely at median household income within 1 to 2 miles and you get wide variances here. While you get Betton, Woodgate, Waverly and Mid Town areas east and south, you get more workforce/blue collar neighborhoods west and north. You have projects/Section 8 within a half mile while larger concentrations of $100K and up households are many miles away. The central location is "ignored" by many it seems. Certainly there are other issues as Chudan points out above, but they were originally talking a retail mix that included some higher-end chains and other establishments that might give pause to that location if they are looking at close-by demographics.
Nah. It was a dead mall. Why would any retailer want to move into a half-butted, hodge podge of a failed-mall renovation? The project lacked focus from the start.

I said from the jump it was the wrong idea. I'm not surprised it failed so miserably. I'm only surprised they didn't even "finish" the project before it flopped.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by DMartin » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:05 am

They really did go about it in the wrong way. They should have leased all the vacancies near AMC and then worked their way out. The two restaurant spots in front of the theater, remodeled the area around the theater (including replacing the exterior doors that are always broken) and then they'd be able to grow out from there and get good quality tenants.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by LCpro » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:17 am

I don't know all of the exact reasons as to why they were unable to lease out that space down by AMC, but its not like they didn't try. Some people agreed upon leasing space, but ultimately backed out when they felt they were getting jerked around with the space ever getting finished. Most potential tenants wanted to know "who else" was coming, wanting some assurance there were other businesses which would be compatible. But they couldn't get anything more than letters of interest, thus creating a "circular" problem(interested parties not signing leases because nobody else would either until they knew what other businesses there would be). I think they miscalculated on the types of retailers that would locate there as well, as I noted earlier. As far as the restaurant space goes, that would likely be the last to get filled as no restaurant is going to open in a half empty mall even if it is across from AMC. Maybe they can refocus with this new vision, but its going to be difficult.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by FUSION » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:18 am

I DO NOT understand their vision - They should have renovated this mall with an open concept and locate the much anticipated Outlet Mall here, with the close proximity to I-10 and large parking lot it would be a great location.
It would bring NEW life and growth to this area and current businesses i.e. AMC Theatre, restaurants, and hotels. I want the Centre to be a success but they need some help.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by Afturn » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:33 am

There was a lot of "makeup on a pig" at the beginning of the Centre's renovation process. Seemingly not a lot of thought went into the usefulness of any of the renovations, or what it would mean for current tenants. Just gutting a mall without really hitting on what made it unpleasant in the first place.

Add to that, now the Pavilion, which was the only decent thing they had going for it, is basically kaput. No shows planned, talking about open-mike nights and comedy hours, that place is dead too.

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tricknole
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by tricknole » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:19 pm

Knock it ALL down. Start from scratch. Only way to make a large scale retail project work there. You can layout the new development to include extensive residential in the eastern/southern portion of the property. Put the restaurants and retail right up at the street along Monroe. Use several parking garage to allow for increased density.

Only way i ever see that place getting it's act together.

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music4life85
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by music4life85 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:45 pm

tricknole wrote:Knock it ALL down. Start from scratch. Only way to make a large scale retail project work there. You can layout the new development to include extensive residential in the eastern/southern portion of the property. Put the restaurants and retail right up at the street along Monroe. Use several parking garage to allow for increased density.

Only way i ever see that place getting it's act together.

But this makes entirely too much sense!

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by florida » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:53 pm

^Just knock it down and let the merchants move elsewhere... Governor's Square, Governor's Market Place, Park Place, Fallschase, Market Square, Downtown-CollegeTown... we can move on from this spot and already have.

There will be a future purpose for the former Tallahassee Mall property. Trying to hold onto it as a retail development is keeping everyone from thinking outside of the box. Perhaps a better site for a major amusement/entertainment land-use not already in Tallahassee such as a small theme park, Zoo, raceway (horse, dogs, cars... options).

I honestly liked the direction of going for entertainment options but the momentum wasn't strong and as someone said above, the area closest to the AMC should have been filled first prior to trying to do anything on those exterior spots.

Exterior has created somewhat of an eye-sore (IMO) with the addition of that outdoor stage. But if it's going to have that component then proper seating should be installed and not folding chairs.

I was hoping we would also see a Skating Rink, Bowling Alley, Putt-Putt-like Golf place, indoor sky-diving... more of these type of places and fewer stores to compete with other major retail centers in town. I don't mean to suggest retail doesn't belong here or along Monroe in this general area, I just felt the idea as I first received it was unique and not conducive to the ordinary type of retail stores that are currently found within this development. Belk could relocate north of town to the former Kohl's Store if they want.

BREAKING NEWS: BURLINGTON is moving to Apalachee Parkway... former Hhgregg spot.

This does not need to be a shopping mall. Entertainment mall was a good direction to go in.

And Centre of Tallahassee was an AWFUL name from Day 1. Super Corny, IMO.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by chudan » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:46 pm

People were pooh-poohing me when I said tenants were looking to get out of the Centre because of how they were treated and the lack of improvement in the retail environment. Burlington had dumped quite a bit of money upgrading their footprint just before "The Centre" came into being (while it was still the Tallahassee Mall). Now it appears they are leaving, which is no surprise because their management has been pretty vocal about how pissed they are about the surrounding dead store fronts and the money they put into the place, coupled with the huge downturn in sales and the impact from concert events.

And the treatment that Ross got being forced to give up floor space so Hibbett Sports could be dovetailed in between Ross and Dollar Tree also went over like a lead balloon with Ross management. They've basically gone into a holding pattern waiting for something else to open up, not even changing out their temporary rolling clothing racks they were using when they had to move around all the Hibbett demoing and construction.

And in talking with sales staff at Victoria Secrets and Bath and Body Works is any indication, Burlington leaving also releases them from their leases. In fact, almost all the leases have releases if this much square footage of active sales left the Centre. This was one of the first dominoes I have talked about since last summer, (Belk being the other) that if one fell it meant the leases could be broken for pretty much everyone else.

Including AMC. The vast majority of the investment they put into the renovation was into the lounge seats. Because they never went through with the full kitchen that was planned for full dining service, they sunk a lot less money into the facility infrastructure that they could not move elsewhere. The lounge seats can be moved to another location as AMC did not do the full blown auditorium retrofits (they built on plywood and framing structures over the much tighter original concrete floor tiers) which is why a lot of the smaller auditoriums are considerably misaligned.

Park Place is probably going to scoop up AMC, imho. Also, Belk will probably move to Gov Square if either Sears and/or Macy's pulls out in next round of mall retail downsizing.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by TallyTownie » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:03 am

florida wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:53 pm
^Just knock it down and let the merchants move elsewhere... Governor's Square, Governor's Market Place, Park Place, Fallschase, Market Square, Downtown-CollegeTown... we can move on from this spot and already have.

There will be a future purpose for the former Tallahassee Mall property. Trying to hold onto it as a retail development is keeping everyone from thinking outside of the box. Perhaps a better site for a major amusement/entertainment land-use not already in Tallahassee such as a small theme park, Zoo, raceway (horse, dogs, cars... options).

I honestly liked the direction of going for entertainment options but the momentum wasn't strong and as someone said above, the area closest to the AMC should have been filled first prior to trying to do anything on those exterior spots.

Exterior has created somewhat of an eye-sore (IMO) with the addition of that outdoor stage. But if it's going to have that component then proper seating should be installed and not folding chairs.

I was hoping we would also see a Skating Rink, Bowling Alley, Putt-Putt-like Golf place, indoor sky-diving... more of these type of places and fewer stores to compete with other major retail centers in town. I don't mean to suggest retail doesn't belong here or along Monroe in this general area, I just felt the idea as I first received it was unique and not conducive to the ordinary type of retail stores that are currently found within this development. Belk could relocate north of town to the former Kohl's Store if they want.

BREAKING NEWS: BURLINGTON is moving to Apalachee Parkway... former Hhgregg spot.

This does not need to be a shopping mall. Entertainment mall was a good direction to go in.

And Centre of Tallahassee was an AWFUL name from Day 1. Super Corny, IMO.
I understand what you mean, but I could also see an "entertainment" style mall as a huge failure as well. If you have ever been to Orlando, Festival Bay (I believe now called Argon) tried this and it failed miserably. There was put-put golf, a skate park, movie theater, ropes course, and random retail/food. During the week it was a ghost town, and even Friday/Saturday nights it was extremely slow. 75% of the mall had empty retail space. And this is in Orlando, close to I-Drive, a very busy and touristy area. I could envision the Centre of Tallahassee failing the same way if it went the entertainment route.

What are y'alls thoughts on knocking the whole thing down and building an outdoor outlet mall (like if Tanger Outlets came to town)? I believe this has been mentioned on this forum a few times...the proximity of I-10 and the need for an outlet mall I think would do very well here.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by UrbanDesign » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:22 am

Yay! im so glad burlington is leaving.

This is the final nail in coffin.

Let the rest of the retailers leave and just bulldoze this mess.

They should probably keep the amphitheater, and bulldoze the rest, as long as they can get a decent booking company.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by 3BNole » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:38 am

I was holding out hope in the beginning that they would bring in an actual ice skating rink. Out of all the things Tallahassee does not have, that's #1 on my list.

I don't want to beat a dead horse about why this failed, so I wont, but I agree with pretty much everyone. At this point I'm hoping the few retailers left move to other places where they can enhance those locations and that the CoT gets torn down sooner than later. Although if the state is sticking their big toe in it, it sounds like it's going to be around forever...

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by chudan » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:10 am

The other problem for an 'entertainment Centre' is the planned sports/entertainment project in Midway. If that goes through as planned that will probably suck up much of the 'entertainment' market that might have worked in the an entertainment Centre.

The biggest problem with it becoming an outlet mall is that ship has already sailed. Park Place out at I-10 and Cap Cir NW is planning on being an outlet mall. I don't think the area will support two outlet malls within 5 miles of each other. Also, Tanger Outlets targets higher end tourist areas. The more likely area around the Florida panhandle for one would be closer to Destin/Panama City corridor.

After Northwood, I'm not so sure DMS is going to lease into a dead mall facility ever again. They are going to want a ground up dedicated office building built to very demanding employee work space and energy savings specs. Neither of which is going to be coming out of the Centre anytime soon. What I could see is the State possibly buying them out at a bargain basement discount and doing its own tear down and facility build. That is the only 'saving' grace I could see for the site. With all the various 'mall' projects going in around town (renovation and new construction) and the history of the site, I'm hard pressed to see anyone wanting it as a retail project at this point.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by TallyTownie » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:49 am

That Park Place at I-10 Outlet mall is an interesting proposal...that would definitely bring life to the area out there. Any idea when this is slated to be complete? Is there another thread in the forum on this?

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by tfmurr8019 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:01 am

TallyTownie wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:49 am
That Park Place at I-10 Outlet mall is an interesting proposal...that would definitely bring life to the area out there. Any idea when this is slated to be complete? Is there another thread in the forum on this?
http://www.urbantallahassee.com/utfl/14/11481

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by UrbanDesign » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:13 am

I would be cool with another park or ice skating place operated by the city.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by tweeter » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:50 am

It'd be great if there was a permanent ice rink there. Maybe the FSU ice hockey team wouldn't have to go to Georgia to play.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by DMartin » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:17 am

I'll still think they should have built a convention center here instead. There are restaurants and hotels around there already, so it'd be a really good location.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by Taco Guapo 2020 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:53 pm

They should a put a 6,000 Seat Arena there for FSU Hockey and Women's Basketball and should have a stage at one end of the bowl for concerts and such then proceed to build apartments all around and include a town center esque retail center. Only problem is the Tucker Center Exist and FSU would probably not be up for building a whole new joint so it would have to be privately funded which typically gets pretty interesting when it comes to construction...

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tricknole
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by tricknole » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:20 am

Taco Guapo 2020 wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:53 pm
They should a put a 6,000 Seat Arena there for FSU Hockey and Women's Basketball and should have a stage at one end of the bowl for concerts and such then proceed to build apartments all around and include a town center esque retail center. Only problem is the Tucker Center Exist and FSU would probably not be up for building a whole new joint so it would have to be privately funded which typically gets pretty interesting when it comes to construction...
FSU has zero interest in this. Less than zero.

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Taco Guapo 2020
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by Taco Guapo 2020 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:27 am

tricknole wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:20 am
Taco Guapo 2020 wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:53 pm
They should a put a 6,000 Seat Arena there for FSU Hockey and Women's Basketball and should have a stage at one end of the bowl for concerts and such then proceed to build apartments all around and include a town center esque retail center. Only problem is the Tucker Center Exist and FSU would probably not be up for building a whole new joint so it would have to be privately funded which typically gets pretty interesting when it comes to construction...
FSU has zero interest in this. Less than zero.
Yeah I know.... :? :? :?

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UrbanDesign
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by UrbanDesign » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:56 am

So how long until they go bankrupt?

After Burlington Leaves, someone said Vic Sec, and Bath and Body will be leaving.

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Taco Guapo 2020
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by Taco Guapo 2020 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:00 am

Probably 6 Months To A Year maybe more maybe less

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