Centre of Tallahassee

Coverage and Discussion of Projects Underway within the City of Tallahassee and Leon County.

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tricknole
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by tricknole » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:30 pm

This project was never going to succeed. It was a half-butt effort from the get go.

But I must admit the swiftness with which its failed has surprised even myself. They didn't even complete construction/renovations before giving up.

And I'm GLAD it's failed. Maybe someone can get a real project going on this site now; someone not afraid to knock down most of what's currently standing.

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LCpro
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by LCpro » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:54 am

florida wrote: I honestly feel like it is on life support and its a hinderance to efforts elsewhere in the city because of the uncertainty about whats going on here.
I don't understand this comment. Could you explain what you mean?

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chudan
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by chudan » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:35 pm

Can't speak to rest of the city, but the rest of the district for sure. Between just Northwood and the Centre, there is an absurd amount of commercial retail/office square footage in limbo. And the lack of curbside appeal of these two major properties do nothing to promote the Midtown success along North Monroe to drift too much north of Bradford.

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downtownster
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by downtownster » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:44 pm

tricknole wrote:This project was never going to succeed. It was a half-butt effort from the get go.

But I must admit the swiftness with which its failed has surprised even myself. They didn't even complete construction/renovations before giving up.

And I'm GLAD it's failed. Maybe someone can get a real project going on this site now; someone not afraid to knock down most of what's currently standing.

The mall owner did pass away but even before that things seemed to be awry. I hadnt been there in many months and now I moved out of tally altogether (after 27 years, yikes). Are there still totally unfinished stores with the steel framing exposed? I recall seeing that near Urban Food market. With the state of brick & mortar retail these days Im surprised the owner did this much work without retail commitments. Could he have been that naive to think if you build it retailers will come????? Magnolia Grove over by Park and Magnolia seems they only built once they had tenants locked in.

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florida
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by florida » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:00 pm

LCpro wrote:
florida wrote: I honestly feel like it is on life support and its a hinderance to efforts elsewhere in the city because of the uncertainty about whats going on here.
I don't understand this comment. Could you explain what you mean?
Uncertainty surrounding what's going on at the Tallahassee Mall might be keeping another developer from wanting to do a major retail project elsewhere or have the impact of delaying such a project as they study the market and do feasibility analysis.

Assume we were a market of 425,000 WITHOUT a mall, a developer would be all over themselves trying to bring in something to serve us. However, WITH not 1, but two existing major mall properties in the market, the desire isn't there. Honestly, we're being held back because of what's already here. My statement suggests, provided modern consumer preferences, we would probably be better off getting what we want out of a shopping mall or lifestyle center if this center did not exist at all.

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florida
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by florida » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:04 pm

downtownster wrote:
tricknole wrote: Magnolia Grove over by Park and Magnolia seems they only built once they had tenants locked in.

Which is what you're supposed to do. Even the Pinnacle at Cross Creek that never got off the ground (again because of concerns that the Tallahassee Mall would re-emerge) had a 70% commitments, and Fallschase before it broke ground was rumored to have stolen the Dillard's from the Tallahassee mall.

You moved out of Tallahassee all together? But you're still in the market, yes?

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LCpro
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by LCpro » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:21 pm

Pinnacle at cross Creek? Was that Devoe's thing he proposed at Mahan & I-10?

Also, stores and businesses like Dillards and AMC are under long-term leases and can't just pick up and move. Another developer can't go and try to get them to break a lease either; that's against the law. There are always "rumors" started by all sorts of folks that aren't based in reality. I'd be very surprised if you saw any store like Dillards or Barnes & Nobles or a place like AMC pick-up and move to another development in town.

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florida
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by florida » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:12 pm

LCpro wrote:Pinnacle at cross Creek? Was that Devoe's thing he proposed at Mahan & I-10?

Also, stores and businesses like Dillards and AMC are under long-term leases and can't just pick up and move. Another developer can't go and try to get them to break a lease either; that's against the law. There are always "rumors" started by all sorts of folks that aren't based in reality. I'd be very surprised if you saw any store like Dillards or Barnes & Nobles or a place like AMC pick-up and move to another development in town.

Yes, that was DeVoe's mall.

And you're correct about the lease agreements, in Dillard's case their lease at the Tallahassee Mall was up for renewal back in 07-08 and they wanted a shorter term extension (3-years I was told) than the Mall owner at the time, Feldman Mall Properties, wanted to give them. This request was due to the fact that Dillard's was set to Anchor Fallschase, of course the great recession changed a lot of plans. (SN: I've been in Real Estate 10+ years). This is the moment in time we can point to as the turning point for the Tallahassee mall... where they couldn't replace Dillard's within the required time frame to retain the other tenants under lease at the mall who exercised their non-consequential cancellation clauses to terminate their leases early and leave the mall.

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LCpro
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by LCpro » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:10 am

Florida,

When I read your response, I finally realized you said Tallahassee Mall rather than Governor Square Mall regarding Dillards. Don't know how I mis-read that before. I was about to suggest that it may have been the Tallahassee Mall one that you were referring to, and then realized that was exactly what you had said. LOL!!

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chudan
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by chudan » Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:11 pm

Well, flush this turd down the crapper. Looks like Centre is changing its direction and trying to lease its space to various State agencies.

So, the experiment in entertainment/retail mix is a bust AND it will enable the flight of state workers from the downtown core.

https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/ ... 372824002/

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by florida » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:02 pm

If its a wrap at the Centre, that's good news elsewhere. I don't want to lose Dreamland or the UrbanFood market though.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by UrbanDesign » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:09 pm

Based on the article they aren’t shutting down.

They’re gonna level all the crappy outparcels

Fired the worthless booking company (that hardly booked concerts)

They are leasing empty Dillard’s building to dept of health,

And they are prob gonna build some apartments

Who knows if they will go bankrupt or if it will work out, but atleast they have a path forward now.

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Taco Guapo 2020
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by Taco Guapo 2020 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:42 pm

florida wrote:If its a wrap at the Centre, that's good news elsewhere. I don't want to lose Dreamland or the UrbanFood market though.
It will probably be like northwood was for awhile with a small food court avalible to the state workers.... Probably will bring more buisness to those food shops..

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by DMartin » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:10 pm

I wonder what they'll do with the Pavilion. Build offices inside of it?

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LCpro
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by LCpro » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:04 pm

There not "doing" anything with The Pavillion. They just cut ties with the current booking company and are hiring someone else. Not sure what the "issue" was. That was the best thing they had going.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by DMartin » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:29 pm

LCpro wrote:There not "doing" anything with The Pavillion. They just cut ties with the current booking company and are hiring someone else. Not sure what the "issue" was. That was the best thing they had going.
I imagine part of the issue is how, as a venue, it seems kind of half-heartedly designed. Do they still just setup folding chairs for events or have they finally gotten portable stadium seating? Have they solved sound issues? I've read reviews about there being lousy areas for sound quality.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by StrikerObi » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:40 pm

The Center is now becoming Northwood Center version 2.0. Failed mall turned into office building for state workers. Great. Let's hope that in a few years from now, we don't find out it's been full of bat guano this whole time.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by chudan » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:46 pm

StrikerObi wrote:The Center is now becoming Northwood Center version 2.0. Failed mall turned into office building for state workers. Great. Let's hope that in a few years from now, we don't find out it's been full of bat guano this whole time.
The probably already have issues with bats and birds because the 'interior' of the northern retail half of the Centre had huge gaping openings to the outside that has let all kinds of things into the facility.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by TallyTownie » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:28 am

From the Tallahassee Democrat article:

"By Christmas 2015, developers promised, the first phase of a dazzling Centre of Tallahassee would emerge. It would be a magnet for shoppers who would stroll from store to store along a cobble-stoned Music Alley leading to a covered amphitheater. "

Man, this place had so much potential. It truly is a shame. I remember thinking about how cool it would be to have an outdoor shopping mall, cobble stoned roads with edison lights strung across, a brewery, live music, and great food. A fun place for families and young folks to go on a Friday and Saturday night.

Was the ultimate downfall just purely mismanagement of building/construction? Or do you think location played a role?

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chudan
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by chudan » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:26 pm

I'm going to say mismanagement of demo/construction and treatment of preexisting tenants. They left the functioning retail space to rot while building the amphitheater which does zilch to attract retail shoppers (in fact appears to drive them away). For all intents and purposes, they have treated the existing tenants like sh!t. The interior of the original mall looks like crap and their concert events have impacted sales, especially during X-mas buying season. Also, while doing demo on south end, they left interior of functioning mall open to birds and vermin (only closed off with chain link fencing and loose plastic sheeting). At the same time they were not doing anything about the aesthetic appearance of the Centre from Monroe. All you see is a crappy pawn shop, a dead gas station, a dead bank used as a senior center sales office, a dead tire store/discount retailer/sandwich shop building and a dead gym. It still looks like a dead mall no matter how you slice it. They got too hung up on the concert promo biz and almost out of the gate started breaking promises made at local community meetings about noise levels and hours of events. Which caused more and more neighborhood locals to look on the Centre with a negative light and stop going there.

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LCpro
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by LCpro » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:16 pm

I've wondered how much surrounding demographics played into their inability to secure quality retail tenants. Many retailers today look very closely at median household income within 1 to 2 miles and you get wide variances here. While you get Betton, Woodgate, Waverly and Mid Town areas east and south, you get more workforce/blue collar neighborhoods west and north. You have projects/Section 8 within a half mile while larger concentrations of $100K and up households are many miles away. The central location is "ignored" by many it seems. Certainly there are other issues as Chudan points out above, but they were originally talking a retail mix that included some higher-end chains and other establishments that might give pause to that location if they are looking at close-by demographics.

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chudan
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by chudan » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:01 pm

LCpro wrote:I've wondered how much surrounding demographics played into their inability to secure quality retail tenants. Many retailers today look very closely at median household income within 1 to 2 miles and you get wide variances here. While you get Betton, Woodgate, Waverly and Mid Town areas east and south, you get more workforce/blue collar neighborhoods west and north. You have projects/Section 8 within a half mile while larger concentrations of $100K and up households are many miles away. The central location is "ignored" by many it seems. Certainly there are other issues as Chudan points out above, but they were originally talking a retail mix that included some higher-end chains and other establishments that might give pause to that location if they are looking at close-by demographics.
Aside from Killearn and Southwood (outside the Capital Circle city core) all of urban Tally is like that demographically. Nice chichi neighborhoods butted up next to low rent Sect 8 and/or cheap student apartments. Its the nature of the beast in this town.

The first problem with the Tallahassee Mall was the original family owning the land not allowing it to convert to an outlet mall. IMHO that was the ONLY thing that could work there easily as plug and play solution. Then the purchase of the land NOT including the pawn shop corner plot was insane, because that is a first impression neon lights location. But that aside, they did everything conceivably possible to botch up presenting the facility as a go to place. They created an amphitheater that looks like a pole barn for the 4H livestock competition at the state fair. They installed a marquee sign in the wrong location, on a corner with no entrance instead of on the middle of the block by the main entrance from Monroe. As I mentioned above, the complete crap fest appearance buildings along Monroe make the place look like a dump and give no hint of any retail in the mall. Nothing says quality like a rundown pawn shop. They over promised at every opportunity, whether it was who they were bringing in or what they would provide to the existing tenants, the incoming tenants and the residents of Tally. They let over-bloated rumors of who was coming run rampant and then when the grand announcement occurred it was an instant let down. Instead of putting restaurants front and center along the perimeter they buried them in the interior where most folk have no clue they are there and the eateries have more the appearance of being a food court for the amphitheater than any thing else. And the public space of the retail wing of the Centre is so depressing looking with ugly facades, empty store fronts and and just a smidgen over zero foot traffic that anyone who does visit for the first time is very unlikely to come back.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by Poonther » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:11 pm

IMHO it was definitely the development/management company to blame. Let me remind you again that this is the same reorganized company that could not make Fallschase work even in that hot market. The Democrat article and those quoted try and blame the demise on the death of the CEO of the development company but that was just the nail in the coffin. So much was wrong here from the start & with the execution as Chudan has pointed out. It was never gonna work as planned. Now we are left with Northwood 2.0 and the one of the city's ugliest signs.

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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by tricknole » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:12 am

TallyTownie wrote:Man, this place had so much potential. It truly is a shame. I remember thinking about how cool it would be to have an outdoor shopping mall, cobble stoned roads with edison lights strung across, a brewery, live music, and great food. A fun place for families and young folks to go on a Friday and Saturday night.

Was the ultimate downfall just purely mismanagement of building/construction? Or do you think location played a role?
This project was awful from the start. That's why if flopped. A lot of hype but no common sense or reality.

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tricknole
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Re: Centre of Tallahassee

Unread post by tricknole » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:14 am

UrbanDesign wrote:Based on the article they aren’t shutting down.

They’re gonna level all the crappy outparcels

Fired the worthless booking company (that hardly booked concerts)

They are leasing empty Dillard’s building to dept of health,

And they are prob gonna build some apartments

Who knows if they will go bankrupt or if it will work out, but atleast they have a path forward now.
The only good thing you just said is leveling outparcels.

Everything else is gross; makes me want to gag. Doubling down on a dumb project? Not brilliant.

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